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Subject: [IP] more on Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in Genesis!

  • From: David Farber <dave@farber.net>
  • To: Ip Ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>
  • Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:26:35 -0400



Begin forwarded message:

From: Bob Frankston <Bob2-19-0501@bobf.frankston.com>
Date: August 5, 2005 3:41:22 PM EDT
To: dave@farber.net, 'Ip Ip' <ip@v2.listbox.com>
Cc: gep2@terabites.com, &quot;David P. Reed&quot; <dpreed@reed.com>
Subject: RE: [IP] more on Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in Genesis!



A short answer &#x2013; it&#x2019;s not about Yale and Andover. It&#x2019;s about elementary schools which teach science as a rite and a system that can&#x2019;t help but perpetuate that approach. I&#x2019;ve already complained about the bias towards teaching testable facts. While it might be useful to understand factoring polynomials how much time should be spent practicing it versus learning to use a symbolic math program?




How many schools teach how to learn let alone the concept of a bug and the corollary that failure IS learning &#x2013; if you survive. But that&#x2019;s evolution itself.



I've started to put together a list of books at http:// www.frankston.com/?name=books including Louis Menand's The Metaphysical Club which is gives a good sense of the history of the ideas and Robert Laughlin's A Different Universe which challenges scientists' own assumptions about what science it. I've cc'ed David Reed who recommended those books and lists others athttp:// www.reed.com/goodbooks.html.



The comment below &quot;what we clearly now KNOW is the truth&quot; is a good example of the dilemma. To me it sounds like an echo of Bush's remark -- so they are both theories. Instead of arguing about ID in the abstract I try to use examples likehttp://www.frankston.com/public/ writing.asp?name=BellDesign which don't have the burden of biology in demonstrating the trap of Intelligent Design.



The good news is that we are starting to have alternative opportunities to learn (obviously the &#x2018;Net helps). I listened to The Metaphysical Club while driving rather than falling asleep reading it. The TV science and history programs have vastly improved though you are still at the risk of confusing the Discovery Institute with the Discovery Channel. And phrases like &#x201C;the miracle of science&#x201D; only add the confusion I thank Jon Stewart for calling the networks to task for describing the survival of the passengers on yesterday&#x2019;s crash as a miracle &#x2013; worth watching &#x2013; anyone have a URL for it online?



This is why I try to find ways to provide insight such as pointing out that evolution is about opportunity and rather than selection. The educational system is what it is &#x2013; we need to act to provide alternative sources of understanding rather than simply just blaming the educational system for doing what it is supposed to do &#x2013; reinforce the norm.



Liberating TV from Tellywood is a good start &#x2013; why is Jon Stewart the exception? But, alas, Fox TV is where the big bucks are and ultimately how to do we make people want to escape their comfort zone? Perhaps this administration is doing it far better than the critics can.







-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ip@v2.listbox.com [mailto:owner-ip@v2.listbox.com] On Behalf Of David Farber
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 12:06
To: Ip Ip
Subject: [IP] more on Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in Genesis!








Begin forwarded message:



From: &quot;Kobrin, Steve&quot; <kobrins@wharton.upenn.edu>

Date: August 5, 2005 11:49:31 AM EDT

To: dave@farber.net

Subject: RE: [IP] more on Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe

in Genesis!





There is a broader question here.  First, &quot;we&quot; is relative; it is far

from clear to me that the large number of Americans who refuse to accept

evolution would condemn the Pope.



More importantly, where have we failed as educators?  It is all too easy

to blame all of this on the Christian Right or fundamentalists.  But if

the surveys are right and around 50% of Americans do not accept

evolution, then 50% of Americans do not accept geology, physics,

archeology and a host of other sciences.  Most of these people are high

school graduates and a good number have college degrees.  What kind of

science education did they have? Evolution is somewhat abstract in the

sense that you can not see or feel it; rocks, however, are not.  Strata

are visible to all.



Most of these people have had science in high school or college.

However, if someone tells them that it is all nonsense and the world was

created 5000 years ago, they believe it.  One has to wonder about the

quality of science education in this country.



Given Bush's latest statement one also has to wonder about the quality

of science education at Andover and Yale.



Steve



-----Original Message-----

From: owner-ip@v2.listbox.com [mailto:owner-ip@v2.listbox.com] On Behalf

Of David Farber

Sent: Friday, August 05, 2005 11:12 AM

To: Ip Ip

Subject: [IP] more on Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in

Genesis!







Begin forwarded message:



From: gep2@terabites.com

Date: August 5, 2005 10:32:52 AM EDT

To: dfarber@cs.cmu.edu

Subject: [IP] more on   Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in

Genesis!





And the Pope excommunicated scientists, centuries back, who dared to

publicly

cling to the preposterous and anti-religious notion that the sun and

other

planets didn't really rotate around the Earth, either.



Today, we look back at the Pope and other &quot;religious&quot; folk of the era

and laugh

at his (and their) ridiculous arrogance.  And we applaud the

scientists and

astronomers who were willing to stand up against &quot;Christians&quot;, and

speak about

what we clearly now KNOW is the truth.



It's amazing how history repeats itself, and how little some folks

have learned.





<---- Begin Forwarded Message ---->

From: David Farber <dave@farber.net>

Subject: [IP] more on   Science is for Pansies - REAL Men believe in

Genesis!

Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 09:29:25 -0400

To: Ip Ip <ip@v2.listbox.com>

Reply-To: dave@farber.net



[snip]



This argument by numbers demonstrates that what the creationists are

doing is not science despite their protestations. Real science is about

testing facts, not signing loyalty oaths. No matter how many theocrats

want material on creationism, the flat earth, or the heavenly spheres

tought in science classes, it's still not science.



[snip]





<----  End Forwarded Message  ---->



Gordon Peterson                  http://personal.terabites.com/

1977-2002  Twenty-fifth anniversary year of Local Area Networking!

Support free and fair US elections!  http://stickers.defend-

democracy.org

12/19/98: Partisan Republicans scornfully ignore the voters they

&quot;represent&quot;.

12/09/00: the date the Republican Party took down democracy in America.









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